10 and 2 4 11.11%

9 and 3 30 83.33%

I use the RT 40+ Necker Knob 1 2.78%

Steering Wheel? 1 2.78%

Watching so many in-car videos I see there are two camps when it comes to hand position on the steering wheel (formula cars). One is the "10 and 2" where hands are fully above the spokes, the other is "9 and 3", hands opposite each other, thumbs usually on spokes. What is your pref and why? Is there a physical / mechanical advantage of one over the other?

I have always grabbed the wheel at 9 / 3 (see avatar), never even considered higher on the wheel, but never really thought about it either, just seems like the right positions for me. What say you?

One choice, anonymous poll

cdh
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Doug,
I find a slight fault in the poll choices with the semi-obvious omission of the One hand top dead center to facilitate the Duke Sanford rodeo lasso wave...:-)
SD
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9 and 3 has the highest mechanical advantage, but I'd be delighted to read an engineer's perspective that agrees or disagrees.

Nevertheless, the perception I have of higher mechanical advantage allows a driver to be more precise with control, and more aware of the direction of the front wheels without looking at the wheel or hands. The brain automatically knows which way the wheels are pointed based on where the hands are.

Doug, I'm sure you've seen drivers taking one hand off the wheel while the other does the work, as I have seen in several videos!

Steve, you make a very good point. I wonder if I still have footage of that somewhere...
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9 and 3, hooking my thumbs over the spokes. Used to do it because it gave leverage for pulling down with the hand on the inside of the turn, but I now realize that I have gradually morphed into "pushing up" with my opposite hand rather than "pulling down" with my same side hand, or else using the hands equally. 9 and 3 allows most of my hand to be below the horizontal diameter of the wheel, giving it leverage for the "push up." I even sometimes find myself hooking my ring or little finger under the spoke to add leverage. That way the spoke is secured between two fingers and my body can do whatever it wants to do at the moment.

Hold on now, there's a necker knob available for the RT? Why the hell was I not told about that?? I'm there!

Known affectionately by me as the Kuhlman grab. A handful of right hand yanking both ways and the left hand just opens and remains stationary. Fun to watch on the vids, especially the instructor reaction. Scary to know it's going on in front of you when you're on his gearbox.
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Here it is. The official Duke Sanford rodeo lasso wave! :-)
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I like 9 & 3 personally. But I try not to hook spokes, just using finger tips and keeping thumbs on the surface of the wheel. One bad apex bump and a hooked thumb or finger is a bad idea.
Harsha, I was never able to open that video from LF with Greg. Can you post it?
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I always liked the 9 & 3 for the same reasons mentioned here, but also for the fact that if the need to shift comes up while turning, the left hand has much better leverage/position as Gerardo has noted.

Stevie D, the poll also left out the method my stepfather used to employ while driving, which was draping the left wrist over the top of the steering wheel. Right arm/hand is resting on top of passenger seat backrest. Probably not possible in a formula car, but scary/hard to watch as the passenger.:-)
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Stevie yer keeping me on my toes brutha :-) (nice Lotus avatar)

Great Duke Lasso Bobo!

There are 2 vids I will post links to once I finish something else, an almost broken thumb - most have seen my first crash at WGI too many times already, and one where I have no idea where the wheel is and what my hands should be doing, also old vid....:-)
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What about 8:30 and 9:30 Mark Martin style?

[URL="
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You guys put BOTH hands on the wheel? How the heck do you text, drink coffe or talk on the phone? Its hard enough trying to sip the coffee between the visor and the helmet.
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...or grab your nuts in those pucker factor turns like at T-1 through T-2 at MT or at the Kink at RA.


BTW Bobo...some of us right hand dominant tennis players work real hard at keeping both hands on the wheel, before you Dis the one hand dominants why don't you challenge us to an arm wrestle and you might find out why one hand is so dominant on the wheel!
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Chris, we know why one of your hands is so dominant, so we have no desire to touch said hand, much less hand-wrestle with it. (ya, right, "tennis")
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Yikes, Rob, I got rid of it as soon as I gave it to you. Sorry I am not spending every night trying to channel your smoooooth hand work. But Greg has it and has a server with the bandwidth to post the entire thing. I wonder why you can't open it. :-)
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For more than the obvious reasons too. As JP pointed out to me after I had bounced around Turn 17 at Sebring a few times, if you grip the wheel tightly and hit a bump, the whole car tries to reorient, but if you hold the wheel lightly, only the steering wheel turns, and the car's momentum keeps it going in the direction that you seek.
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After reviewing video last year Gerardo noticed I was keeping my right hand on the shifter too much of the time which meant I was left hand driving in places I should have had both hands on the wheel. The immediate payback in losing that habit was twice as much steering feedback through my hands and a lot more confidence through those corners.

Interesting to watch the various steering wheel methods in Doug's "Spins & Hits" videos. All sorts of interesting techniques emerge under pressure. Some remain relaxed and surprisingly under control during spins and others... not so much. :-)

BTW- The necker knob is prominently featured in Doug's RT- 40 plus video
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9 & 3, thumbs on spokes. I push up rather than pull down. Tighten belts and remove thumbs from spokes prior to contact with the front wheels.

Physics A: (assuming these steering wheels are round) Greatest torque applied to wheel occurs when a tangential force, or pair of tangential forces, ie: two hands, is applied at a point on the longest radius (force held constant here). The radius is longest when a line drawn through the two contact points passes through the wheel axis of rotation. For a given required torque the requisite input force is lowest at the greatest radius.

Physics B: Pushing up with the off hand (right hand for left turn, left hand for right turrn) causes a reaction at the point of grip that functions in the same manner as the self-energizing leading shoe in a drum brake, hence the harder you push, the tighter the grip
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I knew there was a reason that felt better. Thanks, Mike, for the explanation.
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Another instructor tidbit. Murph told me that pulling is more efficient than pushing and also permits finer small muscle control (i.e., finesse). Hence, pulling down with the hand on the side you want to turn toward is more efficient than pushing up with the opposite hand. This especially applies to catching slides.
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There you go again Harsha bringing it down to the lowest common denominator...since you did why don't you tell us the REAL reason you call your self "S L O W H A N D S".........???:-)
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Trying to get back to the original question CDH... 9 and 3 is my goal although it usually comes out as 9 and 2:30 if I do not make a conscious effort to position and relax the fingers and hands. Hence the dominant right hand trying to assert its control of the wheel.

There are times when I just let go altogether and figure that Jesus driving the car has got to be better than my attempts. Gotta love Dom's in car video from a year or so ago when the wheel actually came off in his hands and he went off course to a slow crawl and was so disgusted he just threw the wheel out of the car altogether. Got to be one of our all time funniest SBRS highlight films!

http://www.skippyforums.com/forums/l...d=7&linkid=455
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I'd have to check with a sports physiologist to confirm those thoughts, Ted. Don't know myself if that is supported by data or just word of mouth. Much would depend on the specific situation. Gravity is certainly on the side of pulling down, but that is not the only consideration. Maybe its just my strange seating position in the car, but my elbows don't have much range of motion for pulling down before they contact the side rail or my torso. That may be a big reason why pushing up feels freer, I have better control, and can put in a large amount of lock instantly if needed. If I have a big slide, or if I've gone (too) deep :-) into a corner on the (locked) brakes :-) for an inside pass on tight turn, I can't get enough lock by pulling down. The way the Nascar guys drive seems to contradict that too, all of them I've seen on in-car demonstrate the Mark Martin technique as seen in the video, that is, all push over the top with the right hand. They have to do that at least twice a lap and sustain it all the way through the corner, which means they are going to choose what feels the most efficient/easiest given the number of laps they run.
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Slower is better. Dr Dre says so. Oh, and FYI my good friend, I may be a dominator, but I sure ain't common. And anyway, I've found the ladies kinda like it.

Oh, you said deNOMinator. My bad.
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Couldn't find it in the Racing Video Library but there's a complimentary piece of video that gets an even bigger laugh when Dom finally realizes that he's tossed away that essential piece of equipment he needs to get his car out of harms way and back on track... THE STEERING WHEEL!... He unbuckles, gets out of the car, retrieves the errant wheel and then has to get back in, buckle up, re-attach the wheel and drive away. To add insult to injury, if memory serves, there is a blow by blow instructor narration on the radio race chatter that adds perky comments to the proceedings.


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I don't know about you guys, but the steering wheel in the R/T is so low, I find myself doing weird things to get a feel for it. Usually I start out in 9 and 3, but have found myself changing position depending on the track. If the track has mostly RH turns I move my right hand to the 1 or 2 oclock position to pull down on the wheel. I have also found the 4 and 8 position to "shuffle" along the turn. I think if the wheel was a little higher in the car, I would change to a consistant 9 and 3.

But, I am weird anyway, so you can just cancel my opinion as a Haloween scare tactic.:-):-):-)
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here's an old one, spin at WGI in '04, I was sure I was going to hit a hard, immovable object really big, so I hunkered down. I got lucky, was happily surprised and I guess I forgot about driving for a second..., oh yeah, the wheel, where are my hands at????

Sy would say it was because I was still using my "welding gloves" :-)

Early edit from '04 - 1.5 min - WGI Spin, super spaz hands at 1:10 :-)
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Nice gloves! You look like the Walmart mascot!
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copy that - although I searched for W-Mart mascot image and the returns were anything but, sheesh.

Bought those gloves online before first school, I didn't know anything (no SF back then) so I opted for high fire protection, hey, my hands are my life....used them for a few years till Sy enlightened me. As if they didn't deaden the feel enough, after some heavy use the leather palm side got tough as...um...leather, not great for feel. After I tried Sy's proper racing gloves I got me a pair :-)

Old chop done in answer to Sy's welder comment :-)

Image
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10 and 2 for me. Actually, watching my videos it is almost more like 10:30 and 1:30!

I guess it is because I have very lanky arms (instructors who know me can attest to this). I agree that 9 and 3 gives more precision, but it also limits my range of motion for if I have to catch a big slide.

Whatever, I'll just have to man up and deal with being big until they finally decide to make single-seaters bigger.

-Darrick
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